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05-31-2021, 01:11 AM
Senior Member
I think I swapped Mike a 130 twin for it. I almost lied to you, that's one I grabbed off the net for the label view, this one below is mine. It's turning a Graupner G-Sonic 15-8 at 8,800 on S&W 15% with 17% full synthetic lube. A Glo-Devil 4c special for Saito and Enya does the firing.
Saito 115
Saito 115
Last edited by 1200SportsterRider; 05-31-2021 at 01:17 AM. Reason: Add content.
05-31-2021, 01:45 AM
Hi,, My FA-170 R3, hesitates a lot from about 5000--7800 RPM regardless of how carefully I am setting the low/high end needles .
I am looking for pictures/drawings or descriptions for the back cover modification (I hope will solve it). My intention is to do the mod on my original cover.
Saito FA170, FA200 or FG33 radial is supposed to be the same in dimensions and modification.
Any pointers, directions is appreciated
I am looking for pictures/drawings or descriptions for the back cover modification (I hope will solve it). My intention is to do the mod on my original cover.
Saito FA170, FA200 or FG33 radial is supposed to be the same in dimensions and modification.
Any pointers, directions is appreciated
05-31-2021, 02:17 AM
Rob, looks to me where you show #3 fuel outlet should be installed pointing up towards #1 cylinder (hardest to get to) and the two other bent passages should feed the lower cylinders #2 & #3 (easiest to get fuel to). The factory bends in the two passages may be there to reduce fuel flow to #2 & #3? The bends in the passages are angled upwards as well, perhaps to help reduce siphoning? Is the manual clear on assembling the fuel distributor?
Also looks to me like it's been modded already. Sorry, I don't have a radial to disassemble and compare. Perhaps you can make a new gasket to block off the modded passage and test run it that way. If nothing else it may show why the mod is done the way it is.
I had a single cylinder Saito FG-21 gasser that hesitated between 4K and 6K. Turns out that the carb had debris packed inside the lsn. I wouldn't have thought that debris all the way at the back of that lsn tube would cause issues but it did. The debris looked like felt from a filter clunk. Also, make sure that the cat-eye slit in the spraybar is facing in towards the engine. If it is rotated in some other orientation it can cause the midrange to run leaner.
Also looks to me like it's been modded already. Sorry, I don't have a radial to disassemble and compare. Perhaps you can make a new gasket to block off the modded passage and test run it that way. If nothing else it may show why the mod is done the way it is.
I had a single cylinder Saito FG-21 gasser that hesitated between 4K and 6K. Turns out that the carb had debris packed inside the lsn. I wouldn't have thought that debris all the way at the back of that lsn tube would cause issues but it did. The debris looked like felt from a filter clunk. Also, make sure that the cat-eye slit in the spraybar is facing in towards the engine. If it is rotated in some other orientation it can cause the midrange to run leaner.
Last edited by Glowgeek; 05-31-2021 at 04:04 AM.
05-31-2021, 04:39 AM
Rob, looks to me where you show #3 fuel outlet should be installed pointing up towards #1 cylinder (hardest to get to) and the two other bent passages should feed the lower cylinders #2 & #3 (easiest to get fuel to). The factory bends in the two passages may be there to reduce fuel flow to #2 & #3? The bends in the passages are angled upwards as well, perhaps to help reduce siphoning? Is the manual clear on assembling the fuel distributor?
Also looks to me like it's been modded already. Sorry, I don't have a radial to disassemble and compare. Perhaps you can make a new gasket to block off the modded passage and test run it that way. If nothing else it may show why the mod is done the way it is.
I had a single cylinder Saito FG-21 gasser that hesitated between 4K and 6K. Turns out that the carb had debris packed inside the lsn. I wouldn't have thought that debris all the way at the back of that lsn tube would cause issues but it did. The debris looked like felt from a filter clunk. Also, make sure that the cat-eye slit in the spraybar is facing in towards the engine. If it is rotated in some other orientation it can cause the midrange to run leaner.
Also looks to me like it's been modded already. Sorry, I don't have a radial to disassemble and compare. Perhaps you can make a new gasket to block off the modded passage and test run it that way. If nothing else it may show why the mod is done the way it is.
I had a single cylinder Saito FG-21 gasser that hesitated between 4K and 6K. Turns out that the carb had debris packed inside the lsn. I wouldn't have thought that debris all the way at the back of that lsn tube would cause issues but it did. The debris looked like felt from a filter clunk. Also, make sure that the cat-eye slit in the spraybar is facing in towards the engine. If it is rotated in some other orientation it can cause the midrange to run leaner.
It makes no sense what the original Saito manual are saying (se attached)
My intention is to do some experimenting by turning the cover 120dg and give the #1 cylinder a "direct" feed.
However #1 and #3 show a temperature differential of about 2-4 degrees while #2 is way off by 20 degrees.
At this point in time I will also test another fuel in order to understand if it might be related with nitro content %.
When reading various posts and vids on youtube it seems like the cure is to install a modded cover (way to expensive for me)
Have checked/cleaned the carb 2-3 times with no difference so my only conclusion is that #2 does not fire either due to beeing flooded or way to lean.
I have tried with O.S-F plugs and with Rcexl ignition with almost the same result.
Apparently this is a known issue for the FA170, FA200 and FG33 but neglected by Saito (shame on them)
I would love to get a picture of a modded cover so I at least can try to do my own
mod.
05-31-2021, 04:58 AM
So #2 is off by 20°? Celcius or Fahrenheit? Hotter or colder? Are you saying #2 won't fire at all? Not even at wot? If it does fire it will be easy to tell if it's too rich or lean by temp and how smoky the exhaust is. Do the cylinders feel like they have equal compression as you roll the engine over?
I see no reason why you couldn't rotate the cover 120° and retest in each position.
I see no reason why you couldn't rotate the cover 120° and retest in each position.
Last edited by Glowgeek; 05-31-2021 at 05:03 AM.
05-31-2021, 05:30 AM
#2 is about 20dg celsius colder than #1 and #3.... (using Frsky telemetry sensors attached at exhaust valve covers)
The engine sounds/runs fine at idle and above 7800rpm. WOT is 9100 on ground with MAS 16x8.
Coming down from WOT and If I let it idle for more than 10 seconds it will hesitate in transition (5000-7800) but if I am idling 2-3 seconds the transition is much better with some smoke.. I understand it as the engine clears out the excess fuel accumulated in #2.
If I try to lean it more on the low end,, some of the other #1 or #3 (or both) will quit and not fire at all.
Compression feels equal on all 3 cylinders..
Will try some other fuel to night
The engine sounds/runs fine at idle and above 7800rpm. WOT is 9100 on ground with MAS 16x8.
Coming down from WOT and If I let it idle for more than 10 seconds it will hesitate in transition (5000-7800) but if I am idling 2-3 seconds the transition is much better with some smoke.. I understand it as the engine clears out the excess fuel accumulated in #2.
If I try to lean it more on the low end,, some of the other #1 or #3 (or both) will quit and not fire at all.
Compression feels equal on all 3 cylinders..
Will try some other fuel to night
Last edited by RoKit; 05-31-2021 at 05:39 AM.
05-31-2021, 06:24 AM
#2 is about 20dg celsius colder than #1 and #3.... (using Frsky telemetry sensors attached at exhaust valve covers)
The engine sounds/runs fine at idle and above 7800rpm. WOT is 9100 on ground with MAS 16x8.
Coming down from WOT and If I let it idle for more than 10 seconds it will hesitate in transition (5000-7800) but if I am idling 2-3 seconds the transition is much better with some smoke.. I understand it as the engine clears out the excess fuel accumulated in #2.
If I try to lean it more on the low end,, some of the other #1 or #3 (or both) will quit and not fire at all.
Compression feels equal on all 3 cylinders..
Will try some other fuel to night
The engine sounds/runs fine at idle and above 7800rpm. WOT is 9100 on ground with MAS 16x8.
Coming down from WOT and If I let it idle for more than 10 seconds it will hesitate in transition (5000-7800) but if I am idling 2-3 seconds the transition is much better with some smoke.. I understand it as the engine clears out the excess fuel accumulated in #2.
If I try to lean it more on the low end,, some of the other #1 or #3 (or both) will quit and not fire at all.
Compression feels equal on all 3 cylinders..
Will try some other fuel to night
Ok, compression is equal, that eliminates the efficiency of one cylinder vs another. Telemetry sensors are only as good as the precise locations you put them. Rocker covers? No. Put them between two cooling fins below the exhaust ports. Jam them in there so they feel tight and don't use any kind of adhesive to hold them in place.
It does sound like the engine is loading up on fuel/oil during extended idling periods, something that's normal for radials (lower cylinders) and something that can be changed (per cylinder) with changes in fuel delivery to individual cylinders. Talking here about changes to the fuel distribution system but still, with radials oil will pool in some intake system designs and blow smoke after extended periods of idling. That's not an issue when accompanied by OBG or CDI as long as all cylinders blow out oil fairly equally on throttle up.
if you let it idle for 10-20 seconds which cylinders are smoking heavily on throttle up?
Forget about the telemetry Rob, your finger (to measure temp) and watching for smoke is all you need to troubleshoot. If it were a gasser then I'd say yes, use temp sensors to evaluate, but methanol engines have a much wider range of operational efficiency.
Adding: With methanol and CDI you should be running your ignition timing at 34-35° btdc. Make sure that's correct before making life-changing mods.
Check your lsn for debris AGAIN. Take a dental pick and clean the tube all the way to the back to make sure there is no debris caught up in there.
Last edited by Glowgeek; 05-31-2021 at 06:48 AM.
05-31-2021, 07:05 AM
Doubtful the fuel will make a difference, unless the oil content changes appreciably.
Ok, compression is equal, that eliminates the efficiency of one cylinder vs another. Telemetry sensors are only as good as the precise locations you put them. Rocker covers? No. Put them between two cooling fins below the exhaust ports. Jam them in there so they feel tight and don't use any kind of adhesive to hold them in place.
It does sound like the engine is loading up on fuel/oil during extended idling periods, something that's normal for radials (lower cylinders) and something that can be changed (per cylinder) with changes in fuel delivery to individual cylinders. Talking here about changes to the fuel distribution system but still, with radials oil will pool in some intake system designs and blow smoke after extended periods of idling. That's not an issue when accompanied by OBG or CDI as long as all cylinders blow out oil fairly equally on throttle up.
if you let it idle for 10-20 seconds which cylinders are smoking heavily on throttle up?
Forget about the telemetry Rob, your finger (to measure temp) and watching for smoke is all you need to troubleshoot. If it were a gasser then I'd say yes, use temp sensors to evaluate, but methanol engines have a much wider range of operational efficiency.
Adding: With methanol and CDI you should be running your ignition timing at 34-35° btdc. Make sure that's correct before making life-changing mods.
Check your lsn for debris AGAIN. Take a dental pick and clean the tube all the way to the back to make sure there is no debris caught up in there.
Ok, compression is equal, that eliminates the efficiency of one cylinder vs another. Telemetry sensors are only as good as the precise locations you put them. Rocker covers? No. Put them between two cooling fins below the exhaust ports. Jam them in there so they feel tight and don't use any kind of adhesive to hold them in place.
It does sound like the engine is loading up on fuel/oil during extended idling periods, something that's normal for radials (lower cylinders) and something that can be changed (per cylinder) with changes in fuel delivery to individual cylinders. Talking here about changes to the fuel distribution system but still, with radials oil will pool in some intake system designs and blow smoke after extended periods of idling. That's not an issue when accompanied by OBG or CDI as long as all cylinders blow out oil fairly equally on throttle up.
if you let it idle for 10-20 seconds which cylinders are smoking heavily on throttle up?
Forget about the telemetry Rob, your finger (to measure temp) and watching for smoke is all you need to troubleshoot. If it were a gasser then I'd say yes, use temp sensors to evaluate, but methanol engines have a much wider range of operational efficiency.
Adding: With methanol and CDI you should be running your ignition timing at 34-35° btdc. Make sure that's correct before making life-changing mods.
Check your lsn for debris AGAIN. Take a dental pick and clean the tube all the way to the back to make sure there is no debris caught up in there.
It´s a Keleo ring exhaust so knowing what cylinder the smoke comes from is not easy,, but it´s logic to assume its from the coldest one.
Regarding the temp.... I am not at all interested in actual temperatures,, only interested about temperature differences so with that in mind it does not matter where the sensors are located as long its the same position at the top of each cylinder,, (off course I have confirmed the sensors and temp diff with my fingers and a IR gun)
The timing is set to 32 BTDC,, Its a Morris minimotors magnet ring and they recommended 28-34 BTDC
But off course I might test and give it another degree or two.
Next time I take the engine off the plane I will most probably, turn the back cover before opening up the carb.
05-31-2021, 07:34 AM
All good Rob. Just document every change you make along the way or you won't learn a damn thing about your engine's running behaviour. For us that can't physically put our hands on the engine we're just taking our best guess. The better you document your changes and the results the better chance someone has to help with whatever question you raise. Sounds like you're heading in right direction though.
RE Kelio exhaust: Takes away the ability to evaluate visually how each individual cylinder is performing. As long as you're running methanol, and not not running terribly lean on any given cylinder there's no danger of burning an exhaust valve seat by running the engine without any exhaust, that way you can evaluate each individual cylinder performance by sight and by touch (temp). I would leave it off until I figured out what's what.
RE Kelio exhaust: Takes away the ability to evaluate visually how each individual cylinder is performing. As long as you're running methanol, and not not running terribly lean on any given cylinder there's no danger of burning an exhaust valve seat by running the engine without any exhaust, that way you can evaluate each individual cylinder performance by sight and by touch (temp). I would leave it off until I figured out what's what.
Last edited by Glowgeek; 05-31-2021 at 08:06 AM.
05-31-2021, 11:28 AM
All good Rob. Just document every change you make along the way or you won't learn a damn thing about your engine's running behaviour. For us that can't physically put our hands on the engine we're just taking our best guess. The better you document your changes and the results the better chance someone has to help with whatever question you raise. Sounds like you're heading in right direction though.
RE Kelio exhaust: Takes away the ability to evaluate visually how each individual cylinder is performing. As long as you're running methanol, and not not running terribly lean on any given cylinder there's no danger of burning an exhaust valve seat by running the engine without any exhaust, that way you can evaluate each individual cylinder performance by sight and by touch (temp). I would leave it off until I figured out what's what.
RE Kelio exhaust: Takes away the ability to evaluate visually how each individual cylinder is performing. As long as you're running methanol, and not not running terribly lean on any given cylinder there's no danger of burning an exhaust valve seat by running the engine without any exhaust, that way you can evaluate each individual cylinder performance by sight and by touch (temp). I would leave it off until I figured out what's what.
that way i will have one more factual input towards a final solution.
I was running one more tank (0.25 liter) this evening with a known good fuel (5% nitro) with marginal difference but the diff was so small so it could have been due to weather (temp, humidity, pressure).. Engine is still hesitating the same way. Hopefully I will have time to prep the next test during this week. From my perspective the hesitation is so severe that I am not taking it up in the air..
Will let you know the results,, however I am still looking for the mod.. ;-)
.
05-31-2021, 12:02 PM
Think its a good suggestion to leave the Keleo for now so I will leave it off when I turn the back cover,
that way i will have one more factual input towards a final solution.
I was running one more tank (0.25 liter) this evening with a known good fuel (5% nitro) with marginal difference but the diff was so small so it could have been due to weather (temp, humidity, pressure).. Engine is still hesitating the same way. Hopefully I will have time to prep the next test during this week. From my perspective the hesitation is so severe that I am not taking it up in the air..
Will let you know the results,, however I am still looking for the mod.. ;-)
.
that way i will have one more factual input towards a final solution.
I was running one more tank (0.25 liter) this evening with a known good fuel (5% nitro) with marginal difference but the diff was so small so it could have been due to weather (temp, humidity, pressure).. Engine is still hesitating the same way. Hopefully I will have time to prep the next test during this week. From my perspective the hesitation is so severe that I am not taking it up in the air..
Will let you know the results,, however I am still looking for the mod.. ;-)
.
Last edited by Glowgeek; 05-31-2021 at 01:24 PM.
05-31-2021, 02:24 PM
and others say a mod is a must in order to have them reliable. And some other say that it runs much better converted to gas.
As usual its hard for someone like me to know "what is what", so I start with the basics and go from there without spending to much money or time.
Me personally I want my engine to respond on sligtest throttle movement at all time throughout the whole rpm range,
otherwise I can´t take it up in the air,,
Plan "B",,,, The engine looks nice and would be an expensive decoration on my bookshelf. :-)
BTW,, My engine is produced in 2008, I bought it new in box (and it was new),,
the aftermarket intake manifold mod was introduced about 2013-14... and Saito picked up the mod on some
of their engines, possibly the later FA200 and the FG33, this is as I understand it and it might be wrong.
Last edited by RoKit; 05-31-2021 at 02:31 PM.
05-31-2021, 03:55 PM
If you lived in the US I'd say send it to Horizon Hobby for the update. They have a history of doing that at no charge if the parts are available. Do you have a Saito service center over there that could check for updates to your 170R3?
How much fuel have you run through the engine so far?
How much fuel have you run through the engine so far?
Last edited by Glowgeek; 05-31-2021 at 03:58 PM.
05-31-2021, 11:22 PM
If you lived in the US I'd say send it to Horizon Hobby for the update. They have a history of doing that at no charge if the parts are available. Do you have a Saito service center over there that could check for updates to your 170R3?
How much fuel have you run through the engine so far?
How much fuel have you run through the engine so far?
(Saito suggested to use onboard glow)
I have run about 7liter, think that corresponds to 1.5 gallon.
06-01-2021, 02:53 AM
Looks similar to Rob's part ie same mod. In both cases it's obvious that machining was performed post plating process. This is encouraging, to see that Saito performed a mod themselves. I say a mod, not necessarily the mod that other tuners have done. That's what Rob is trying to lay his eyes on, the mod, like the one sold by MMM.
Now I wonder, are the instructions for assembling the fuel distributor covers correct, post mod.
Rob, it will be interesting to see the results you get by rotating/clocking the assembly 120° each time.
Just had thought Rob. Start a thread and/or post a wanted ad on the classified for pictures of the mod. Maybe someone will be nice enough to comply.
Now I wonder, are the instructions for assembling the fuel distributor covers correct, post mod.
Rob, it will be interesting to see the results you get by rotating/clocking the assembly 120° each time.
Just had thought Rob. Start a thread and/or post a wanted ad on the classified for pictures of the mod. Maybe someone will be nice enough to comply.
Last edited by Glowgeek; 06-01-2021 at 04:10 AM.
06-01-2021, 10:55 PM
06-01-2021, 11:19 PM
Looks similar to Rob's part ie same mod. In both cases it's obvious that machining was performed post plating process. This is encouraging, to see that Saito performed a mod themselves. I say a mod, not necessarily the mod that other tuners have done. That's what Rob is trying to lay his eyes on, the mod, like the one sold by MMM.
Now I wonder, are the instructions for assembling the fuel distributor covers correct, post mod.
Rob, it will be interesting to see the results you get by rotating/clocking the assembly 120° each time.
Just had thought Rob. Start a thread and/or post a wanted ad on the classified for pictures of the mod. Maybe someone will be nice enough to comply.
Now I wonder, are the instructions for assembling the fuel distributor covers correct, post mod.
Rob, it will be interesting to see the results you get by rotating/clocking the assembly 120° each time.
Just had thought Rob. Start a thread and/or post a wanted ad on the classified for pictures of the mod. Maybe someone will be nice enough to comply.
Pointing out the instruction is relevant,, I watched a video
with the "dot" towards #1 and not #3. (the instruction want you to have the dot pointing at #3). Maybe his engine had the "dot" towards #1 initially ?
Have to figure out how to start a thread..
06-02-2021, 04:00 AM
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SaitoFG84 cooling
I have a SaitoFG 84 and I talked to Ray English and he told me that on a TF FW 190 all 3 cylinders have to have an air excess behind.On the 2 side ones i have an opening through the exhaust opening how to do it on the top? Don't want to cut the cowl open.
Any suggestions?
Any suggestions?
06-02-2021, 04:40 AM
But i also noticed he had a poor top end rpm in the "final run" video, along with #2 flame out on idle.
I would assume he was intentionally running it rich..