Welcome to Club SAITO !
11-09-2006, 10:36 PM
#5226
11-09-2006, 11:08 PM
#5227
RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !
I have three pullers, the smallest being the one in the picture which came from an independent auto parts store in Opelika, Alabama. I have another larger New Britain P-150-D that came from the NAPA store in Auburn, Alabama. I also have another New Britain puller that has two threaded rods that connect with the threaded holes in the bearing separator tool. Some of these I've had for almost 50 years.
I think the bearing separator does less damage to the Saito drive washer than using just the puller jaws. Also when using the bearing separator clamp, the three jaw puller doesn't attach to it very well. The 3 jaw puller will pull off-center when using the separator.
I think the bearing separator does less damage to the Saito drive washer than using just the puller jaws. Also when using the bearing separator clamp, the three jaw puller doesn't attach to it very well. The 3 jaw puller will pull off-center when using the separator.
11-09-2006, 11:13 PM
#5229
RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !
Sun Dancer,
You should check the timing on your 125 cam with all that chattering going on?
Find top dead center of the piston when the valves are open. (not on the compression stroke) The valves should be open the same amount with the tops of the rocker arms parallel. One valve will be closing and the other opening.
You should check the timing on your 125 cam with all that chattering going on?
Find top dead center of the piston when the valves are open. (not on the compression stroke) The valves should be open the same amount with the tops of the rocker arms parallel. One valve will be closing and the other opening.
11-10-2006, 11:28 PM
#5231
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RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !
OK folks, we've had some discusion about play in bearings. Brand new bearings have play in them. I've added to Saito Notes about this, current "Notes" is dated November 10th.
Here's the addition:
I also added a bit about oil selection and ARO to the current version.
Bill.
Here's the addition:
Bearings – general notes:
Any bearing has to have some clearance for its lubrication – plain, roller whether tapered or straight, needle, and ball bearings as well. Without clearance for the oil or grease the balls, rollers, or bearing surface would immediately overheat and fail.
As a result of this clearance there will always be slop even in a brand new bearing. Some have more, a ball bearing with a C4 rating for example, others less as in a C1 rated bearing.
The bearing clearance depends on what type of lube will be used, the rpm expected, and the installation fit.
If the bearing is a press fit in the case the outer race will be compressed, if it is also a press fit on the shaft the inner race will be stretched. As a result a C4 bearing could well have a C2 fit when installed.
In Saito engines the bearings are a light press fit in the case when cold, at operating temperature they are almost a free fit. The shaft is a light hand fit through them, so a C3 bearing gives us a C3 running fit. A C2 bearing can be used, but the C3 gives better life.
And why should the looser bearing last longer? Now we’re down to lubrication. The tighter fit leaves less room for the oil, making the lubrication require better oils, that is, oils with a high film strength. With the looser fit lower film strength is needed, so we can usually get away with using synthetic oils.
Additionally, regardless of the C rating, as the rpm goes up centrifugal force increases the contact pressure of the balls on the outer races, the higher the film strength the higher the resistance to pressing through the oil, leading to bearing failure.
Final notes. With the clearance in the bearings there will always be some small amount of free play, when cold with stiff oil you may not notice it but 1/16†play (or more) at the tip of the prop can sometimes be noted with brand new bearings, and this is not an indication of any fault.
Any bearing has to have some clearance for its lubrication – plain, roller whether tapered or straight, needle, and ball bearings as well. Without clearance for the oil or grease the balls, rollers, or bearing surface would immediately overheat and fail.
As a result of this clearance there will always be slop even in a brand new bearing. Some have more, a ball bearing with a C4 rating for example, others less as in a C1 rated bearing.
The bearing clearance depends on what type of lube will be used, the rpm expected, and the installation fit.
If the bearing is a press fit in the case the outer race will be compressed, if it is also a press fit on the shaft the inner race will be stretched. As a result a C4 bearing could well have a C2 fit when installed.
In Saito engines the bearings are a light press fit in the case when cold, at operating temperature they are almost a free fit. The shaft is a light hand fit through them, so a C3 bearing gives us a C3 running fit. A C2 bearing can be used, but the C3 gives better life.
And why should the looser bearing last longer? Now we’re down to lubrication. The tighter fit leaves less room for the oil, making the lubrication require better oils, that is, oils with a high film strength. With the looser fit lower film strength is needed, so we can usually get away with using synthetic oils.
Additionally, regardless of the C rating, as the rpm goes up centrifugal force increases the contact pressure of the balls on the outer races, the higher the film strength the higher the resistance to pressing through the oil, leading to bearing failure.
Final notes. With the clearance in the bearings there will always be some small amount of free play, when cold with stiff oil you may not notice it but 1/16†play (or more) at the tip of the prop can sometimes be noted with brand new bearings, and this is not an indication of any fault.
Bill.
11-11-2006, 12:42 AM
#5233
RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !
Guys...I just got 2 Saito .45's...they're old ones, the guy I bought 'em from said they are series 2? They came in a blue box I guess?
How old are they? Are any newer generation parts compatable? I'm thinking maybe the newer cam would be "hotter"?
They are in good condition, just need bearings, but I'd like to experiment with one of them...
How old are they? Are any newer generation parts compatable? I'm thinking maybe the newer cam would be "hotter"?
They are in good condition, just need bearings, but I'd like to experiment with one of them...
11-11-2006, 05:10 AM
#5234
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RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !
ORIGINAL: William Robison
OK folks, we've had some discusion about play in bearings. Brand new bearings have play in them. I've added to Saito Notes about this, current "Notes" is dated November 10th.
Here's the addition:
I also added a bit about oil selection and ARO to the current version.
Bill.
OK folks, we've had some discusion about play in bearings. Brand new bearings have play in them. I've added to Saito Notes about this, current "Notes" is dated November 10th.
Here's the addition:
Bearings – general notes:
Any bearing has to have some clearance for its lubrication – plain, roller whether tapered or straight, needle, and ball bearings as well. Without clearance for the oil or grease the balls, rollers, or bearing surface would immediately overheat and fail.
As a result of this clearance there will always be slop even in a brand new bearing. Some have more, a ball bearing with a C4 rating for example, others less as in a C1 rated bearing.
The bearing clearance depends on what type of lube will be used, the rpm expected, and the installation fit.
If the bearing is a press fit in the case the outer race will be compressed, if it is also a press fit on the shaft the inner race will be stretched. As a result a C4 bearing could well have a C2 fit when installed.
In Saito engines the bearings are a light press fit in the case when cold, at operating temperature they are almost a free fit. The shaft is a light hand fit through them, so a C3 bearing gives us a C3 running fit. A C2 bearing can be used, but the C3 gives better life.
And why should the looser bearing last longer? Now we’re down to lubrication. The tighter fit leaves less room for the oil, making the lubrication require better oils, that is, oils with a high film strength. With the looser fit lower film strength is needed, so we can usually get away with using synthetic oils.
Additionally, regardless of the C rating, as the rpm goes up centrifugal force increases the contact pressure of the balls on the outer races, the higher the film strength the higher the resistance to pressing through the oil, leading to bearing failure.
Final notes. With the clearance in the bearings there will always be some small amount of free play, when cold with stiff oil you may not notice it but 1/16†play (or more) at the tip of the prop can sometimes be noted with brand new bearings, and this is not an indication of any fault.
Any bearing has to have some clearance for its lubrication – plain, roller whether tapered or straight, needle, and ball bearings as well. Without clearance for the oil or grease the balls, rollers, or bearing surface would immediately overheat and fail.
As a result of this clearance there will always be slop even in a brand new bearing. Some have more, a ball bearing with a C4 rating for example, others less as in a C1 rated bearing.
The bearing clearance depends on what type of lube will be used, the rpm expected, and the installation fit.
If the bearing is a press fit in the case the outer race will be compressed, if it is also a press fit on the shaft the inner race will be stretched. As a result a C4 bearing could well have a C2 fit when installed.
In Saito engines the bearings are a light press fit in the case when cold, at operating temperature they are almost a free fit. The shaft is a light hand fit through them, so a C3 bearing gives us a C3 running fit. A C2 bearing can be used, but the C3 gives better life.
And why should the looser bearing last longer? Now we’re down to lubrication. The tighter fit leaves less room for the oil, making the lubrication require better oils, that is, oils with a high film strength. With the looser fit lower film strength is needed, so we can usually get away with using synthetic oils.
Additionally, regardless of the C rating, as the rpm goes up centrifugal force increases the contact pressure of the balls on the outer races, the higher the film strength the higher the resistance to pressing through the oil, leading to bearing failure.
Final notes. With the clearance in the bearings there will always be some small amount of free play, when cold with stiff oil you may not notice it but 1/16†play (or more) at the tip of the prop can sometimes be noted with brand new bearings, and this is not an indication of any fault.
Bill.
I have a slightly clearance or free play at the tip of the prop in my SA180, probably no more than 1/16". But dont know how much is too much or normal. Engine is 1,5 years old and has about 10 gallons 20% oil 50/50 castor/synthetis and 10% nitro thru it. The bearings feels smooth and make no noise yet.
Is there anything else I would look for before I replace these bearings?
In my twostrokes I usually wait until I can hear the bad bearings noise or can feel rough and notchy bearings before I replace them.
11-11-2006, 07:06 AM
#5235
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RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !
I am constantly bewildered by the basic questions members ask, i.e. :- what prop do I use with this engine and plane, or my XYZ 120 is pulling 10500rpm with a zinger 15x8 prop. Is this ok? As a motor mechanic of well over 30 years I work by a few simple rules of thumb.
1. If it isn’t fu*@~d don’t fix it.
2. If you don’t know what you are doing don’t mess about with it.
3. If it looks right it usually is right.
4. It’s only a bodge if it doesn’t work.
Our great hobby is about building and flying planes get out there and fly the damn thing instead of wondering if the low end needle ought to be 2 ¾ or 2 7/8 turns out.
Gaz
11-11-2006, 08:32 AM
#5237
RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !
They look just like the engine on the left with the older style I. pipe...(only not quite so clean...thanks Hobbsy 
)
They sat in the basement of one of our retired club members for probably at least 15, maybe closer to 20 yrs.
Crock-potted 'em yesterday, and dis-assembled 'em last night. They both look and feel like they don't have much time on them, and it won't take much to get them running again.
Gonna order some more bearings from Paul @ rc-bearings...[sm=thumbs_up.gif]
Might try the kmot style treatment on them, because there was some white-ish gray fluffy dusty corrosion on some of the fins though...and even after cleaning, there's some pitting, and they look a little dull and not so sweet
)They sat in the basement of one of our retired club members for probably at least 15, maybe closer to 20 yrs.
Crock-potted 'em yesterday, and dis-assembled 'em last night. They both look and feel like they don't have much time on them, and it won't take much to get them running again.
Gonna order some more bearings from Paul @ rc-bearings...[sm=thumbs_up.gif]
Might try the kmot style treatment on them, because there was some white-ish gray fluffy dusty corrosion on some of the fins though...and even after cleaning, there's some pitting, and they look a little dull and not so sweet
11-11-2006, 08:58 AM
#5238
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RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !
For some people the fiddling and tinkering is part of the fun. I personally love to optimise things until they are as perfect as I can make them. Some people think "good enough" is good enough. I don't think things can ever be good enough.
ORIGINAL: crazy4planes2000
I am constantly bewildered by the basic questions members ask, i.e. :- what prop do I use with this engine and plane, or my XYZ 120 is pulling 10500rpm with a zinger 15x8 prop. Is this ok? As a motor mechanic of well over 30 years I work by a few simple rules of thumb.
1. If it isn’t fu*@~d don’t fix it.
2. If you don’t know what you are doing don’t mess about with it.
3. If it looks right it usually is right.
4. It’s only a bodge if it doesn’t work.
Our great hobby is about building and flying planes get out there and fly the damn thing instead of wondering if the low end needle ought to be 2 ¾ or 2 7/8 turns out.
Gaz
I am constantly bewildered by the basic questions members ask, i.e. :- what prop do I use with this engine and plane, or my XYZ 120 is pulling 10500rpm with a zinger 15x8 prop. Is this ok? As a motor mechanic of well over 30 years I work by a few simple rules of thumb.
1. If it isn’t fu*@~d don’t fix it.
2. If you don’t know what you are doing don’t mess about with it.
3. If it looks right it usually is right.
4. It’s only a bodge if it doesn’t work.
Our great hobby is about building and flying planes get out there and fly the damn thing instead of wondering if the low end needle ought to be 2 ¾ or 2 7/8 turns out.
Gaz
11-11-2006, 10:40 AM
#5239
RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !
ORIGINAL: crazy4planes2000
I am constantly bewildered by the basic questions members ask, i.e. :- what prop do I use with this engine and plane, or my XYZ 120 is pulling 10500rpm with a zinger 15x8 prop. Is this ok? As a motor mechanic of well over 30 years I work by a few simple rules of thumb.
1. If it isn’t fu*@~d don’t fix it.
2. If you don’t know what you are doing don’t mess about with it.
3. If it looks right it usually is right.
4. It’s only a bodge if it doesn’t work.
Our great hobby is about building and flying planes get out there and fly the damn thing instead of wondering if the low end needle ought to be 2 ¾ or 2 7/8 turns out.
Gaz
I am constantly bewildered by the basic questions members ask, i.e. :- what prop do I use with this engine and plane, or my XYZ 120 is pulling 10500rpm with a zinger 15x8 prop. Is this ok? As a motor mechanic of well over 30 years I work by a few simple rules of thumb.
1. If it isn’t fu*@~d don’t fix it.
2. If you don’t know what you are doing don’t mess about with it.
3. If it looks right it usually is right.
4. It’s only a bodge if it doesn’t work.
Our great hobby is about building and flying planes get out there and fly the damn thing instead of wondering if the low end needle ought to be 2 ¾ or 2 7/8 turns out.
Gaz
thank you guys here on RCU for answering all my stupid questions
and as far as messing with stuff i know nothing about.....well i cant stop it!!!!!!!
11-11-2006, 11:46 AM
#5240
RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !
as a newbe at the field about three years ago that had a OS 50SX. He dirt knapped the engine. So he took it apart to clean it. The head was stuck on the sleeve so he put a big Cresent wrench on the head and twisted the head to Break it loose. Well, he tore up the little spring type roll pin used to orient the sleeve in the correct position so the ports would align. He ended up breaking the ring also. He brought it to the field and the other guys told him he had ruined the engine and might as well buy another.
After about 6 months, I told him I thought I could fix it. I put the Sleeve-head in the oven for 20 min and the head fell off. I put in a new Bowman ring and new bearings. It turned out pretty good.
After about 6 months, I told him I thought I could fix it. I put the Sleeve-head in the oven for 20 min and the head fell off. I put in a new Bowman ring and new bearings. It turned out pretty good.
11-11-2006, 12:52 PM
#5241
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RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !
If U wanna have fun messing with something buy a YS. Incredible power second to none, but the downside is you are always tinkering and messing with them. I have Saito's on my sport planes cause there is not much messing around with them. This thread and the advice given here has been very helpful. Gotta be honest though, my serious stuff is all YS powered and once setup correctly they are damn hard to beat. BTW the original bearings are still in both of my 110 FZ'S, not so with my Saito's .
.
11-11-2006, 01:04 PM
#5242
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RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !
Stoney:
The YS have a great advantage over other model four stroke engines; they pump fresh mixture through the crankcase so there's never any accumulation of acids and other damaging combustion products in the bottom end of the engine. As a result, always having fresh clean oil in the case everything is bound to have less damage and longer life.
Bill.
The YS have a great advantage over other model four stroke engines; they pump fresh mixture through the crankcase so there's never any accumulation of acids and other damaging combustion products in the bottom end of the engine. As a result, always having fresh clean oil in the case everything is bound to have less damage and longer life.
Bill.
11-11-2006, 01:58 PM
#5243
RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !
O.K. guys...I know this has been discussed somewhere in this thread...it must have been.
I am dis-assembling the .45's and trying to get the valve spring retainers off of the slightly mushroomed valve tips...
On the .45, there is very little working room to get any file, or tool to file / grind, polish(?) the tip so the retainer can come off...
How do you guys do it?
I am dis-assembling the .45's and trying to get the valve spring retainers off of the slightly mushroomed valve tips...
On the .45, there is very little working room to get any file, or tool to file / grind, polish(?) the tip so the retainer can come off...
How do you guys do it?
11-11-2006, 05:04 PM
#5245
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RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !
What is the expected life of a typical saito engine when you are using this engine for about five or six flights once a week, using cool power 20% syntetic oil?
11-11-2006, 05:27 PM
#5246
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RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !
Alfred:
Possibly as much as one quarter the life expected using Omega 20% with the castor/synthetic blend.
Bill.
ORIGINAL: alfredbmor
What is the expected life of a typical saito engine when you are using this engine for about five or six flights once a week, using cool power 20% syntetic oil?
What is the expected life of a typical saito engine when you are using this engine for about five or six flights once a week, using cool power 20% syntetic oil?
Bill.
11-11-2006, 05:43 PM
#5247
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RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !
Al:
Seriously, using all synthetic you can expect to change the bearings sometime around 30 hours, the rest should still be good. At the next bearing replacement expect to change the tappets as well. Somewhere around 100 hours you'll have to change the camshaft as well as the tappets. The valve springs should be changed along with each bearing replacement, they tend to lose strength as they run.
This projected maintenance can be changed greatly by using the castor blend, and installing the stainless/ceramic composite bearings at the first change. Using the castor cam and tappet wear is all but eliminated, and the "Ceramic" bearing life is at least ten times longer than the OEM bearings.
All this is predicated on flushing the crankcase after each flying session and using a good ARO, and regularly checking the valve clearance. Without the flush and ARO acids and other contaminants will accumulate in the case, etch the cam and eat the bearings. If the valve lash is allowed to run too loose the hammering will pit the cam lobes and ruin the tappets even using the castor oil.
With good maintenance, the castor oil, and ceramic bearings, you can expect 200-300 hours before the next tear-down. Unless you crash the engine, of course.
Bill.
Seriously, using all synthetic you can expect to change the bearings sometime around 30 hours, the rest should still be good. At the next bearing replacement expect to change the tappets as well. Somewhere around 100 hours you'll have to change the camshaft as well as the tappets. The valve springs should be changed along with each bearing replacement, they tend to lose strength as they run.
This projected maintenance can be changed greatly by using the castor blend, and installing the stainless/ceramic composite bearings at the first change. Using the castor cam and tappet wear is all but eliminated, and the "Ceramic" bearing life is at least ten times longer than the OEM bearings.
All this is predicated on flushing the crankcase after each flying session and using a good ARO, and regularly checking the valve clearance. Without the flush and ARO acids and other contaminants will accumulate in the case, etch the cam and eat the bearings. If the valve lash is allowed to run too loose the hammering will pit the cam lobes and ruin the tappets even using the castor oil.
With good maintenance, the castor oil, and ceramic bearings, you can expect 200-300 hours before the next tear-down. Unless you crash the engine, of course.
Bill.
11-11-2006, 06:40 PM
#5248
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RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !
After reading various posts about cam & tappet lubrication issues due to the backplate vent on some Saito engine & inspired by Bill R's writings on the subject, I plucked up the courage & drilled/tapped a 3mm hole in my FA45 cam cover. Having screwed in a nipple ensuring it is flush with the inside of the cover, I then plugged the rear hole with a tight fitting bolt in a short length of tubing. Will give it a test next week. Here are a few pics, maybe it will inspire others with the backplate vents.
11-11-2006, 06:46 PM
#5249
11-11-2006, 06:52 PM
#5250
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RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !
Thanks Bill - I appreciate your comments.
With respect to the throttle linkage, I initally had a bellcrank arrangement that "sort of worked", but I could never get true linear movement. In the end, the light bulb flashed (only momentarily) in the brain & I realised that a simple piece of wire, stiff but bent as per the pic would do the job 100% perfectly. And of course the ball link takes care of minor misalignment. Works a treat
I am somewhat alarmed by your comment about the flat washers. Do you mean to tell me that some folk out there do NOT use them ? Ugh [:'(]
Edit: spelling mistake [:-]
With respect to the throttle linkage, I initally had a bellcrank arrangement that "sort of worked", but I could never get true linear movement. In the end, the light bulb flashed (only momentarily) in the brain & I realised that a simple piece of wire, stiff but bent as per the pic would do the job 100% perfectly. And of course the ball link takes care of minor misalignment. Works a treat
I am somewhat alarmed by your comment about the flat washers. Do you mean to tell me that some folk out there do NOT use them ? Ugh [:'(]
Edit: spelling mistake [:-]