Welcome to Club SAITO !
11-14-2006, 11:45 AM
#5326
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RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !
Doug,
Per Bill's advice awhile ago, I add 4oz of Sig castor per gallon to my Powermaster YS/Saito 20/20 fuel. Both my YS engines and Saito's run superbly and I have seen no detrimental effects.
I would highly reccomend that you do purchase Ultra Oil from Performance Specialties to use as an after run in your YS engines. The Ultra Oil will not harm the gaskets, o-rings or regulator diapragm.
Bill,
I also apologize for my earlier comments about the schrader valve on the IB regulator. I was talking about the tool used to tighten the valve, not the valve itself
.
Per Bill's advice awhile ago, I add 4oz of Sig castor per gallon to my Powermaster YS/Saito 20/20 fuel. Both my YS engines and Saito's run superbly and I have seen no detrimental effects.
I would highly reccomend that you do purchase Ultra Oil from Performance Specialties to use as an after run in your YS engines. The Ultra Oil will not harm the gaskets, o-rings or regulator diapragm.
Bill,
I also apologize for my earlier comments about the schrader valve on the IB regulator. I was talking about the tool used to tighten the valve, not the valve itself
.
11-14-2006, 12:37 PM
#5327
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RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !
i was told a while ago that after run oils should be synthetic. if it were to contact any rubber material; i.e gasket or o ring in carb or pump, it would get damaged. i was told to use mobil 1 synthetic oil or a similar. i use a glue injector syringe, any where in the engine and carb asn necessary. i have to ask one thing though, after run is fine for non cowled engines, what do i do w/my funtana s90 or ucando 3d with a cowling completely surrounding the engine? i would have to take off the tru turn spinner, the prop the muffler and exhaust manifold and cowl, then reassemble them. would take well over 1/2 hour. thoughts? i have both saito and os four strokes.
jon b
jon b
11-14-2006, 12:40 PM
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RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !
I commonly use automatic transmission fluid as an after run oil, I have not had use my saitos engines for many years, I do not know if it was a good choice but I took the advice from Clarence Lee when he used to have his engine clinic at the RCM Magazine. What are your thoughts about this issue.
11-14-2006, 12:46 PM
#5329
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RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !
Al:
I have used ATF as my choice of ARO for years, I have seen no reason to switch to any other oil.
Jon:
Excerpt from Saito Notes:
Hope this helps.
Bill.
I have used ATF as my choice of ARO for years, I have seen no reason to switch to any other oil.
Jon:
Excerpt from Saito Notes:
After run oil – how the #% do I get it in the crankcase?
Some few twins have two crankcase ports, but none of the singles do. As a result when you try to force the ARO in it tends to blow back out. No problem.
Got a plastic squeeze bottle with a tapered spout, the sort that you put your tomato catsup or mustard in. Best if you can see the level of the contents. If the tip is small enough to go into the vent hose you’re done. If not a short length of brass tubing can be forced in the tip, or you can cut the tip back to get a larger diameter that will let you push the vent hose inside.
Fill it about ½ way with your favorite AR oil, and you are ready.
Pull the vent hose out the top of the plane, or if not convenient turn the plane over, just be sure the hose is pointing up. Attach your new oil bottle to the hose. Then holding the bottle with the tip down turn the engine slowly.
While the piston is going down in the bore you’ll see bubbles in the oil bottle, then when the piston is going up it will draw oil back into the engine. Keep turning until you have drawn an ounce or so of oil in. Unhook the bottle, turn the plane back upright (Or the hose back out the bottom) and spin the engine for a few seconds with your starter. This last will make sure the oil is run everywhere inside the engine, and blow any excess out.
Simple, isn’t it?
Some few twins have two crankcase ports, but none of the singles do. As a result when you try to force the ARO in it tends to blow back out. No problem.
Got a plastic squeeze bottle with a tapered spout, the sort that you put your tomato catsup or mustard in. Best if you can see the level of the contents. If the tip is small enough to go into the vent hose you’re done. If not a short length of brass tubing can be forced in the tip, or you can cut the tip back to get a larger diameter that will let you push the vent hose inside.
Fill it about ½ way with your favorite AR oil, and you are ready.
Pull the vent hose out the top of the plane, or if not convenient turn the plane over, just be sure the hose is pointing up. Attach your new oil bottle to the hose. Then holding the bottle with the tip down turn the engine slowly.
While the piston is going down in the bore you’ll see bubbles in the oil bottle, then when the piston is going up it will draw oil back into the engine. Keep turning until you have drawn an ounce or so of oil in. Unhook the bottle, turn the plane back upright (Or the hose back out the bottom) and spin the engine for a few seconds with your starter. This last will make sure the oil is run everywhere inside the engine, and blow any excess out.
Simple, isn’t it?
Bill.
11-14-2006, 12:53 PM
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RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !
When I use after run oil on my engines mounted on a cowling set up, I commonly use the breath nipple that I use to have connected with a fuel tube routed to the same exit where the muffler goes, I use a syringe to supply the oil to the crankcase and turn the engine clockwise several times then counterclockwise and let the plane standing on its nose.
11-14-2006, 01:15 PM
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RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !
Bill
Well that makes pretty good sense. I read that YS gas ports their new engines and offers to to the same to older engines (i.e. 91 AC) which I have. YS would be more sensitive to pressure drops, if the crankcase pressure is used to pressurize fuel system. So I'm sure that if an engine is sent in that they would take into account the ring tension required for gas porting. I guess the K.I.S.S. system for four stokes has some merit. I don't want to turn my Saitos into YSs. I love them both. WE love the idea of getting just a little more out of our engines. That is why this forum is so great.
Thanks again.
Well that makes pretty good sense. I read that YS gas ports their new engines and offers to to the same to older engines (i.e. 91 AC) which I have. YS would be more sensitive to pressure drops, if the crankcase pressure is used to pressurize fuel system. So I'm sure that if an engine is sent in that they would take into account the ring tension required for gas porting. I guess the K.I.S.S. system for four stokes has some merit. I don't want to turn my Saitos into YSs. I love them both. WE love the idea of getting just a little more out of our engines. That is why this forum is so great.
Thanks again.
11-14-2006, 01:38 PM
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RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !
Doug:
Let's review model four stroke engines for a moment. All but YS anyway, we'll get to them later.
None of our common engines have any method of lubricating the lower end of the engine except piston blow-by. If we had a perfect ring seal the bottom end would run dry and then... We could make the ring seal a lot better just by decreasing the end gap of the ring, but then we could also starve the bearings. In actuality, the suggested ring gap is calibrated to get the desired leakage. Increasing the ring seal would be counter productive.
Now to the YS engines. As the YS use the crankcase as a scavenge pump cum supercharger any leakage from the crankcase into the combustion chamber would decrease the pumping efficiency, and at the same time any combustion leakage into the crankcase would contaminate the fresh mixture. And as the YS pumps the fresh mixture through the crankcase we don't need any ring leakage to maintain the oil in the bottom end. So. On YS the better the ring seal the better it runs. Subject to higher friction losses of course, and as a Dyke's ring wont help leakage from the case into the combustion chamber, a gas ported piston is the better choice.
Bill.
Let's review model four stroke engines for a moment. All but YS anyway, we'll get to them later.
None of our common engines have any method of lubricating the lower end of the engine except piston blow-by. If we had a perfect ring seal the bottom end would run dry and then... We could make the ring seal a lot better just by decreasing the end gap of the ring, but then we could also starve the bearings. In actuality, the suggested ring gap is calibrated to get the desired leakage. Increasing the ring seal would be counter productive.
Now to the YS engines. As the YS use the crankcase as a scavenge pump cum supercharger any leakage from the crankcase into the combustion chamber would decrease the pumping efficiency, and at the same time any combustion leakage into the crankcase would contaminate the fresh mixture. And as the YS pumps the fresh mixture through the crankcase we don't need any ring leakage to maintain the oil in the bottom end. So. On YS the better the ring seal the better it runs. Subject to higher friction losses of course, and as a Dyke's ring wont help leakage from the case into the combustion chamber, a gas ported piston is the better choice.
Bill.
11-14-2006, 08:07 PM
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RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !
I dont intend on someone here to accuratly diagnose my problem with a 2 month old Saito 125. I had a prop strike at 10,000 rpm. Since then the Rpm has signifactly reduced, The bearings do not houwl. The crank does not seem to be loose. Is there a possibility that I have bent the rod??? It ideles smoothly, transitions great low to high, smoothe roation. Bearings are on the way. reciprocating mass could have forced the rod to bend. fact or fiction??/
11-14-2006, 10:38 PM
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RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !
bill,
i have read thru about 15 pages of this thread, one thing i found on about the third page was a note on .25 size diesels and you replied that they might have a fair amount of vibration. i have been very curious of the davis diesel, i've read a little bit, produce more torque, quieter and less fuel (offset by the cost of the fuel @$30/gal). how do i learn more about them? if it is what davis says, an os 91 fx would be great on my funtana s90.
for after run oil i have saitos, so the oil injection in the vent tube i understand, but what about my os 70, 90 and 120 4 strokes w/the vent tube recirculator to the carb. is it against rules to ask here? i thought of a sullivan tee fitting inline and extended below the cowling and cap off. would that be correct?
jon b
i have read thru about 15 pages of this thread, one thing i found on about the third page was a note on .25 size diesels and you replied that they might have a fair amount of vibration. i have been very curious of the davis diesel, i've read a little bit, produce more torque, quieter and less fuel (offset by the cost of the fuel @$30/gal). how do i learn more about them? if it is what davis says, an os 91 fx would be great on my funtana s90.
for after run oil i have saitos, so the oil injection in the vent tube i understand, but what about my os 70, 90 and 120 4 strokes w/the vent tube recirculator to the carb. is it against rules to ask here? i thought of a sullivan tee fitting inline and extended below the cowling and cap off. would that be correct?
jon b
11-15-2006, 01:30 AM
#5337
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RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !
ORIGINAL: proptop
Ed...I have found out the hard way over the last 3-4 years that I've been cooking engines in the crockpot 'o antifreeze what comes off and what doesn't...
Most anodized parts come back out just fine, but I have had a few that the color got a little bit lighter.
When I first started doing it I used too much heat...and I think that might have had something to do with bleaching out the color...(I have a pink head from an old McCoy now...
)
The black from my .80GK was chipped and flaking off from the cyl. when I got it used from an old friend. I decided to just throw the jug in w/ some other engines/parts while I worked on removing the crank / bearings from the lower case...
When I pulled the jug out of the bath, most of the black was gone, and the rest came off w/ a tooth brush.
Ed...I have found out the hard way over the last 3-4 years that I've been cooking engines in the crockpot 'o antifreeze what comes off and what doesn't...
Most anodized parts come back out just fine, but I have had a few that the color got a little bit lighter.
When I first started doing it I used too much heat...and I think that might have had something to do with bleaching out the color...(I have a pink head from an old McCoy now...
)The black from my .80GK was chipped and flaking off from the cyl. when I got it used from an old friend. I decided to just throw the jug in w/ some other engines/parts while I worked on removing the crank / bearings from the lower case...
When I pulled the jug out of the bath, most of the black was gone, and the rest came off w/ a tooth brush.
------------------
I appreciate the information, proptop. Hands on, have done info is the best kind. Thanks.
Ed Cregger
11-15-2006, 01:35 AM
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RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !
ORIGINAL: William Robison
(snip) The thing you need to be careful of, running a YS, is to be sure your synthetic oil is truly synthetic, and not made from a petroleum base. The petroleum base will destroy the regulator diaphragm.
Bill.
[/b]
(snip) The thing you need to be careful of, running a YS, is to be sure your synthetic oil is truly synthetic, and not made from a petroleum base. The petroleum base will destroy the regulator diaphragm.
Bill.
[/b]
-------------
Do you know off the top of your head which synthetic oils are NOT petroleum based, or where to obtain this information? This makes sense, but I hadn't thought of it before. TIA
Ed Cregger
11-15-2006, 01:41 AM
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RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !
ORIGINAL: olstoney
Doug,
Per Bill's advice awhile ago, I add 4oz of Sig castor per gallon to my Powermaster YS/Saito 20/20 fuel. Both my YS engines and Saito's run superbly and I have seen no detrimental effects.
I would highly reccomend that you do purchase Ultra Oil from Performance Specialties to use as an after run in your YS engines. The Ultra Oil will not harm the gaskets, o-rings or regulator diapragm.
Doug,
Per Bill's advice awhile ago, I add 4oz of Sig castor per gallon to my Powermaster YS/Saito 20/20 fuel. Both my YS engines and Saito's run superbly and I have seen no detrimental effects.
I would highly reccomend that you do purchase Ultra Oil from Performance Specialties to use as an after run in your YS engines. The Ultra Oil will not harm the gaskets, o-rings or regulator diapragm.
--------------
Being long retired, I have had the time to do a lot of reading about our hobby. That being said, it is easy to correlate policy changes in lubricants with engineering changes in YS and Saito engines.
One day, when removable cylinder heads were still being employed by YS and Saito, castor oil was touted as being our best friend by both importers of said engines here in the USA.
Nearly the very next day, after YS and Saito engines began using a one piece cylinder head/jug assembly, castor became our enemy and was to be avoided. With the cylinder heads made as an integral part of the jug, it was now a PITA to remove carbon/varnish deposits from the gas passages in both brands of engines.
I find this to be more than a coincidence.
Unfortunately, those of us that were not paying attention and the new folks that have joined our ranks, misinterpreted the no/less castor oil advisory as meaning that castor oil was not as good as synthetic lubricants. Not so. It was changed as a matter of convenience for those that perform the warranty and repair work of these engine brands.
Ed Cregger
11-15-2006, 02:50 AM
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RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !
Jon:
The resident expert on diesels in general, and Davis conversions in particular, is Hobbsy. I'll ask him to step in and take your questions on them.
Far be it from me to encourage the use of OS engines, but the same method I mentioned for getting ARO into a Saito case works fine on ANY four stroke single. BUT IN THE CASE of the vent line going to the inlet pipe you will need some way to keep the oil from going into the intake, a hydraulic lock could easily happen if this is not seen to.
Ed:
A mini-tutorial on oil.
A given single grade "Weight" of oil has an average molecule size that determines its flow rate at a given temperature, "Conventional" oils will have many smaller and larger molecues than the specific size. The smaller ones, the lighter fractions, boil off, pass by the rings and get burned, until they do they don't lubricate as well as the larger ones. The ones that are bigger than ideal will impede the flow, tend to clog the oil filter and generally "Get in the way" until they turn to sludge in the bottom of the oil pan.
Then we had "Multi-viscosity" oils. These are marked by two numbers in the grade designation, 20W-50 for example. Simplifying this we can say that 20W-50 pours like a 20 wt when cold, and a 50 wt when hot. It does this by having its molecules arranged in a spiral shape, when cold they're small, as they heat they expand to maintain the viscosity. The problem with early multi-grade oils was that the spiral molecules weren't very strong, under the heat and bearing loads in the engine they woulod break up and starting with a 20W-50 after a period of time you'd have a straight 20W oil, or maybe even a 10W. In a big American V-8 the loads were mile enough that the break down was so slow that the oil was fine until the next oil change. Small high revving imported engines though, could break the oil down in jut a few miles of hard running. Some makers, Porsche for one, cautioned thast use of multi-viscosity oil would void the engine warranty.
This was 40-50 years ago, most of you wont have any memory of such things. And the oils have improved to the point that a lot of this is no longer of concern. But the molecular size variation is still there. So, now "Synthetic" oils enter the picture.
By very careful fractional distillation and chemical separation the oil companies were able to get much greater dconsistency in the molecule size, as much as 95% all the same size. By eliminating the lighter and heavier fractions the oil would last a lot longer in service without either boiling off or turning to sludge. By virtue of the additional processing, they called it Synthetic," and they had removed many of the disadvantges of petroleum lubricants. But it was still a petroleum oil, as much as the oil companies tried to disguise the fact. Calling it synthetic did allow them to charge 4-5 times the price of conventional oils though.
Modern synthetics are still made from a petroleum base, but only use the petroleum as a raw material. The base oil is literally "Taken apart" and reassembled into the exact molecule size and shape desired, in doing so all the light and heavy aromatics are eliminated. These aromatics in "Natural" and early style synthetics are the part that damage the natural rubber parts in our engines.
So. We now have the highly refined petroleum based synthetics, which wont do your engines any good, and opposite to them we have the "Recombined" synthetics that work fine. But I don't know which are which, and I doubt any oil company will tell you.
Bottom line, if you stick with the synthetics that are rated for model engines you should be fine. Anything else you're on your own.
Bill.
PS: I think "Mobil One" is an ordinary petroleum base, I wouldn't use it without extensive testing like soaking a YS diaphragm in it for a month or so. wr.
The resident expert on diesels in general, and Davis conversions in particular, is Hobbsy. I'll ask him to step in and take your questions on them.
Far be it from me to encourage the use of OS engines, but the same method I mentioned for getting ARO into a Saito case works fine on ANY four stroke single. BUT IN THE CASE of the vent line going to the inlet pipe you will need some way to keep the oil from going into the intake, a hydraulic lock could easily happen if this is not seen to.
Ed:
A mini-tutorial on oil.
A given single grade "Weight" of oil has an average molecule size that determines its flow rate at a given temperature, "Conventional" oils will have many smaller and larger molecues than the specific size. The smaller ones, the lighter fractions, boil off, pass by the rings and get burned, until they do they don't lubricate as well as the larger ones. The ones that are bigger than ideal will impede the flow, tend to clog the oil filter and generally "Get in the way" until they turn to sludge in the bottom of the oil pan.
Then we had "Multi-viscosity" oils. These are marked by two numbers in the grade designation, 20W-50 for example. Simplifying this we can say that 20W-50 pours like a 20 wt when cold, and a 50 wt when hot. It does this by having its molecules arranged in a spiral shape, when cold they're small, as they heat they expand to maintain the viscosity. The problem with early multi-grade oils was that the spiral molecules weren't very strong, under the heat and bearing loads in the engine they woulod break up and starting with a 20W-50 after a period of time you'd have a straight 20W oil, or maybe even a 10W. In a big American V-8 the loads were mile enough that the break down was so slow that the oil was fine until the next oil change. Small high revving imported engines though, could break the oil down in jut a few miles of hard running. Some makers, Porsche for one, cautioned thast use of multi-viscosity oil would void the engine warranty.
This was 40-50 years ago, most of you wont have any memory of such things. And the oils have improved to the point that a lot of this is no longer of concern. But the molecular size variation is still there. So, now "Synthetic" oils enter the picture.
By very careful fractional distillation and chemical separation the oil companies were able to get much greater dconsistency in the molecule size, as much as 95% all the same size. By eliminating the lighter and heavier fractions the oil would last a lot longer in service without either boiling off or turning to sludge. By virtue of the additional processing, they called it Synthetic," and they had removed many of the disadvantges of petroleum lubricants. But it was still a petroleum oil, as much as the oil companies tried to disguise the fact. Calling it synthetic did allow them to charge 4-5 times the price of conventional oils though.
Modern synthetics are still made from a petroleum base, but only use the petroleum as a raw material. The base oil is literally "Taken apart" and reassembled into the exact molecule size and shape desired, in doing so all the light and heavy aromatics are eliminated. These aromatics in "Natural" and early style synthetics are the part that damage the natural rubber parts in our engines.
So. We now have the highly refined petroleum based synthetics, which wont do your engines any good, and opposite to them we have the "Recombined" synthetics that work fine. But I don't know which are which, and I doubt any oil company will tell you.
Bottom line, if you stick with the synthetics that are rated for model engines you should be fine. Anything else you're on your own.
Bill.
PS: I think "Mobil One" is an ordinary petroleum base, I wouldn't use it without extensive testing like soaking a YS diaphragm in it for a month or so. wr.
11-15-2006, 08:57 AM
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RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !
well, i guess synthetic isn't as synthetic as i originally thought. i'll use the air tool oil as others have stated.
jon b
jon b
11-15-2006, 10:07 AM
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RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !
Hello, I have a like new Saito 65 I got from a friend who does not fly anymore.
I was thinking of putting it on a 3D Hanger 9 40 size Twist but can't find any information on this engine. The plane calls for a 56-72 size 4 stroke engine.
Anyone know if this engine would have good power in this application and is the 65 a good engine. I couldn't find it listed in Saito's engine line.
Thanks for your help.
I was thinking of putting it on a 3D Hanger 9 40 size Twist but can't find any information on this engine. The plane calls for a 56-72 size 4 stroke engine.
Anyone know if this engine would have good power in this application and is the 65 a good engine. I couldn't find it listed in Saito's engine line.
Thanks for your help.
11-15-2006, 10:28 AM
#5344
RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !
The Saito 65 is a well mannered 4 stroke that seems to last forever.
However, it is not the most powerful four stroke for the amount it weighs.
It should be OK for your plane as long as you can get the plane to balance correctly.
However, it is not the most powerful four stroke for the amount it weighs.
It should be OK for your plane as long as you can get the plane to balance correctly.
11-15-2006, 01:38 PM
#5346
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RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !
Thanks w8ye for the response. You are correct the engine is heavy and the balancing is something I am concerned about in this style plane.
11-15-2006, 02:06 PM
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RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !
Maybe 5% - 10% or so? It depends on a lot of different things.
ORIGINAL: alfredbmor
What RPM increase percentage should I expect if change my fuel from 20% to 30%?
What RPM increase percentage should I expect if change my fuel from 20% to 30%?
11-15-2006, 03:25 PM
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RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !
Just read an article in flyRC. On a saito 125, withthe same prop 8480 on 10%, 8570 on 15%, 8750 on 30%. I would guess about 8660 on 20% (which he didn't test) . Hope this helps.
11-15-2006, 03:48 PM
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RE: Welcome to Club SAITO !
I have several 4 strokes, both saito and enya. My 65 could well be my best engine. It is in a 60 inch, 7 1/2 lb curtiss hawk bipe and it flys great. As to ARO, I use marine storage fogging oil in an aerosol can. I set the prop back 1/2 turn back from TDC and apply the oil into the crankcase vent fuel tubing. When the prop turns from the pressure, I know it is getting into the whole crankcase. Works for me.