kaastrup

Hi w8ye

I already have the check valve in the pressure line from the crankcase to the tank. But if I use a Tee, am I not loosing all the pressure out the vent line then ? Will the tank get any pressure at all ???

Hobbsy

My Feedback: (102)

You cannot block the vent, or you'll force oil out through the front bearing and other places. It must be open to the atmosphere. Putting the check in the side of the vent will still send enough pressure to the tank.

kaastrup

OK thanks, I will try it tomorrow...

On the crankcase there is a mark above the lower nibble, for a second nibble, maybe I will put a second nibble in here...

w8ye

My Feedback: (16)

When you use the two holes in the backplate of the Saito, you use these two valves. They are check valves. One lets air into the crankcase and the other lets it out.
http://www.horizonhobby.com/Products...dID=SAI130T68A

richlloyd914

p51delta,
You MAY be in the rare world of too lean on the HS and too rich on the LS.
If the LS is at factory new, regardless of how well the engine runs, you are way too rich. A lean HS would cause the backfire (probably actually detonation) when you opened the throttle, apparently completely and rapidly, on the low pass. The prop-loosening bang while tuning was, most likely, a too lean on the HS situation.
Set the HS as the instructions with the engine direct, probably 5 turns out for a 1.00. Run the engine up to full-throttle and slowly lean the HS for best rpm. Do this at FULL-THROTTLE ONLY. Use a tach, when these engines get close to peak it is very hard to hear the rpm change as you change mixture. You may be able to do so, but the engines can deceive a Saito neophyte. Once this is achieved return the engine to a high idle and begin to lean the LS needle. Turn the needle slowly..let the engine catch up to the adjustments. You will have to turn the LS needle more than you think will be needed. You will notice the rpm picking up, the engine smoothing out, and much less oil and unburned fuel coming from the exhaust and crankcase vent. Lean the LS until the engine JUST BEGINS to slow.. You are now a wee bit too lean. From this point back the LS out 1/8 turn at a time until you reach the point at which you get a good clean, repeatable, stumble-free transition to full-throttle. You are looking for the leanest LS setting that will allow such a transition. Too lean and the engine will stop. Restart, open 1/8 and try again.
Once you have the LS set go back to FULL-THROTTLE and adjust the HS for a 200-300 rpm drop from peak.
The engine will be running pretty nicely now. Adjust the idle speed with the end-point-adjustment or with the TX or with the linkage lacking a computer radio.
You will find as you run the engine that it will accept lower idle speeds and you may need to retune the LS a bit as time accumulates, or you change fuel or flying field (elevation).
Good luck, have fun.

blw

My Feedback: (3)

Jim,

The only thing I would add is to test the throttle response of any LS adjustment slowly at first and listen for it to take the throttle smoothly. If so, then try advancing it a bit quicker to see. I've seen some people want to shove the throttle up fast right away, and that leads to backfires if it is lean or right on the edge.

p51delta

OK. Thanks guys. Sounds good. I'll give it a try and let you know how it worked out.

Terry 5

My Feedback: (3)

Ok guys, I am convinced the fa 220 must be the worst engine I have ever had the displeasure of owning. Its just one attempt from being pulled off and kicked to the curb. I sure wish I had bought a DA-50 when I had the chance. I have run this thing with onboard glow, 30% heli Perry os pump changed the fuel lines and no matter what I do, it runs different ever time I start it, that is when it starts. It will either start right up and run like crap on the low end or be hard to start and run like crap on the hi end. By that I mean it has a banging or pinging sound on high end. Low end just wont stay running with out glow on. This stinks, I miss my old cap with Saito 180 that always cranked and flew great. Just want fly, I hate tuning this 220. If anybody has dealt with this monster and has had success, please help.

kaastrup

Hi

Not that I'am the all mighty Saito expert, but because I am going to use a new Webra regulator on my Saito 150, I've read through these pages, and it seems to me that you might find your answer here

http://www.saito-engines.info/pumps.html

vince.b

My Feedback: (1)

kick it to the curb this way...
send it back to be fixed.... they will be able to tell you if it was something wrong from the factory or if it was something you have done.
I have one and have not run it yet.
Have you run it on and engine stand with the stock fuel pressure system ?

sounds like its starving, if its pinging and banging. and if its run like that for anylegth of time its more then likely damaged.

i have talked to iron bay about there reg for the 220,,, he says that it does not deliverenough fuel for the 220...
he also says that the 220 stock fuel system works fine even when the tank is not close to the engine.
from what i here the 220 has a tone of vacume. and does not need a pump system, it will run just fine set up in the stock configuration.
I would like to here the break in prosses that you did on your 220.

Terry 5

My Feedback: (3)

vince.b
Yes I agree with you, Its sounds as if it is starving, I have the high end open to 3 to 3.5 turns less than that and u get the pinging so I opened back up. Low end is at or just below flush and I have fuel dripping out of the muffler when I turn her over. When she is running there is gobs of smoke and oil coming out so I tried to lean the low end out a little since my main problem is getting a good idle. She will idle at 1800 to 2100 with glow on but take it away and it dies. It will stay on @ 2800 to 3000 without glow but it makes for one fast landing and I have to cut power as soon as she makes the runway. I don't believe I have damaged the engine because I don't let it run with the pinging. As soon as I heard it I richen ed her back up. As Far as break in I just followed the manual instructions 10+ mins. below 4k and used 20% oil content i.e.; satio 20/20 let her run through about a gallon of that rich at half speed and increased to full for a bit then back down. The break in was pretty much as I do with my other Saito's. Other than the fact I cant seem to dial in that ideal idle the rest of the power range is Ok. In fact I have pulled over 20 lbs. of thrust with it.

rlmcnii

My Feedback: (3)

Terry5,
Have you run your other Saitos on a pump?

Terry 5

My Feedback: (3)

Yes I ran My 180 on a perry pump as well

claytucker

I am going nutz! I purchased my saito 82 new. Yes it has a very quick throttle response and tons of power but occasionally I have dead sticks... I have tuned this engine and tried everything over and over again. I am running 30% nitro could that be it???

I have had over 15 2 stroke engines, all with top performance and I never had a problem tuning them. Once tuned, I can't remember a single one of my two strokes having a dead stick in the past year. I've tried everything. Even the RC shop owner helped tuneD the engine.

Now I've seen most of the guys at our club that fly 4 strokes have a dead stick at one time or another and that includes one professional - the shop owner. I am so discouraged. suggestions.

rlmcnii

My Feedback: (3)

Terry5,
I don't know if it will help, but back in the early days of this thread there was a series of posts dealing with problems tuning an engine on a Perry pump. It may take a little time to find it.
It seems to me that the fellow put a tee in the fuel line after the pump with one leg going to the carburetor and one leg diverting excess fuel back to the tank. Apparently the problem was too much fuel (or pressure) from the pump to the carburetor and the engine was impossible to tune properly.
All of this is from memory (these posts were probably over a year ago) so it may be wise to find them.
I have no first-hand experience with pumps. Perhaps those posts may be of assistance.

Terry 5

My Feedback: (3)

I seem to remember reading something like that b4, It may be time to switch my nitro habit over to gas. No since in avoiding the inevitable.

MMmmm Gas[&:]

kaastrup

Terry5
I can see its a VP-20 pump.

Have you read the link I send you, thats what I was trying to tell you too - you are getting to much pressure

"I have found that a pressure of about 0.5 to 1.0 psi is ideal for the Saito-120 and 150."

Make a pressure measurement and see - or why dont you by-pass the pump and turn the plane over so the engine is upright, and then see if it runs satisfying...

w8ye

My Feedback: (16)

The VP20 was intended to be bolted directly to the crankcase using the back plate bolts

Terry 5

My Feedback: (3)

Turning the engine around is about the only thing I have not done just because that configuration will not be desireable for this plane. I added the pump after having this problem but it does not seem to help any so I could remove it all together. I did read the link you sent thank you for the Info.

Terry 5

My Feedback: (3)

Yes I normally have it that way but on this engine mounted inverted like it is, it would not fit that way, so the owner at the LHS said that this should be fine. I don't know if that is correct but I tried it. From all indications it may be getting to much fuel. I'll also try an Apc prop and see if the heaver weight helps at all. Thank you for your Ideas,every lil bit helps get me a bit closer to resolving my problem. Any idea on what size prop would be best for 3d or high alph flying?

mred33

I have the same pump on a Saito 125 and once I got it dialed in, it ran great. The pressure is adjustable and it sounds like you are getting to much pressure. Follow the instructions that came with the pump and once you get it right, it will run forever without any dead sticks. I had to turn mine back some when I first got it and after that, it runs like a clock. Haven't had a lick of problems out of it after I got rid of that Zinger wood prop. You could try sending it back to Horizon, but I would try adjusting the pressure first.
Ed

dammitman

My Feedback: (15)

i need help finding a part. i am looking for the twin carb replacement setup for an old saito FA-80T. i have a brand new one that i am putting on a goldberg cub and when i test ran it it does as everyone knows and ran lean on the right cylinder. rather, it runs rich on the left. can anyone help me find the setup for the twin carbs? thanks.

vince.b

My Feedback: (1)

I read on Horizons site (The review). They mentioned it takes about a gallon of fuel b4 it will idle down without the glow driver.
and about 2 gallons b4 it will idle with out the extra heat.
my bet is this engine will take about 5 gallons of fuel to settle down.
Ys and OS Heli engines can take 4 to 8 gallons b4 they settle down and thats a 2 stroke turning 16000.
as far as i know everything about this engine is brand new from the bottom up.
I think the 220 just needs to run on a stand for atleast 1 gallon.
Or maybe guys are making the the number 1 mistake on a fresh engine....
trying to set the low end right off the bat.
My experience on this needle is to leave it alone for a few gallons.
also my bet is this big block is just eating plugs because everything is so tight.
no matter how rich you are on a new engine the plugs always burn up. this is from all the metal in the break in prosses.
how many guys are useing a starter to crank over a virgine engine ?
I remember years ago having to use a starter on a virgine engine and an old timer getting me to leave the plug just a little on the loose side. he said this with help it start and protect the engine from a hydrolock.
that engine was just a 2 stroke but it started pretty much right away,
As soon as i get my exhust system back i will be starting the break-in.
my plan is to run a gollon with heat to plug until i stop the engine to refuel.
and more then likely for the whole gallon on the stand.
in Horizons review it says they enjoy this engine but it takes time to settle down.

Terry 5

My Feedback: (3)

vince.b

I bet your right, My experience with the 180 is that once all the frustration of leting the engine just run super rich was over, it was not hard to set and then it ran perfect for over five years.

Hobbsy

My Feedback: (102)

Actually, you can eliminate all the frustration by doing this,
10 minutes at 4,000 rpm at 1/4 to 1/3 throttle,
10 minutes at 5,000 rpm,
10 minutes at 6,000 rpm
10 minutes at 7,000 rpm

Shut down and refill tank,
Re-start, warm up, set HS needle at absolute peak,
Lean LS needle in 1/8th turn increments reducing throttle opening as engine idles faster from improved fuel mixture,
Check idle and transition after every other LS needle change, when you reach best idle and transition reduce peak rpm by 300 rpm rich. This will have taken up 40 to 50 minutes, go fly, your needle settings will change very little if at all from these settings.

The initial 10 minutes at 4,000 is for 10 minutes max, beyond that you are running the engine too slow and too cold to do any breaking in.
Using this regimen any Saito will hold compression like an ABC engine.